The Coalition of the Swilling

Yes, these are very brave people. 35+ people leaving 'calmly' as a fellow 'unarmed' passenger is being butchered by a psycho. I could maybe understand if he was brandishing a 9 mileometer pistol, but don't understand the cowardice exhibited by these people acting so 'bravely' when he was only armed with a knife. Makes me feel secure in Canada, try that crap in Texas and see were it goes.

And it's on a bus, Lynn. I could understand some if it were more open and the guy had room to maneuver, but in a narrow bus, when they I'm sure all had luggage, you could just throw bags at him and then pile on.

Nah, the luggage would be underneath. And like major dad and ebola said, knives freak people out.

I'm still in the fire extinguisher/bus's tool kit camp. There HAD to be something someone could have done to wonk this guy so somebody else could tackle him.

You know, in the US, come to think of it, how many people on public transportation would have pepper spray or those personal tasers?

I agree how come nobody got up and did anything?

The speed of a knife attach is much different that a gun shooting. you could be stabbed 25 times before anyone even knew anything was happening. One gun shot and everyone hit the ground. Another thing. Enough with the Canada bashing seriously if this happened in texas we would have 25 people with gunshot wounds

How typically American, so used to TV and video game violence that you think it's a piece of cake to take down a huge guy with a rambo knife in reality and no one is going to get badly hurt? I'd be real proud of myself if I was the one who provoked him to slice up the toddler or 6 year old on the bus next.

The one guy posting described how he can barely play in the church lady league without being injured for weeks, and he is going to be Mr Arnold Schwarzenneger? Give me a friggin break and get back to reality. You people would be the first to piss your pants if this happened to you in real life, I wager.

I asked the same question of a friend of mine, weren't there any freakin men on this godforsaken bus to help this poor kid, and she said NO, there were only a bunch of puss*&$#@^... how disgusting. Brave and courageous?!?!? who the hell is this yahoo?!?!? If this had happened in the states, they would have rushed the psycho, and probably given him a taste of his own medicine. Canadians are so neutral and self concerned that this episode comes as no surprise. Having lived in Washington DC for 17 years and now having spent 2 years in Vancouver BC - I can clearly attest to this.

NBD, so you're real proud that someone got killed and you did nothing?

And yeah, I guess it is typically american; i cling to my religion, my guns, and my bag which I'll use as a weapon to help protect another person. 30 people rush the guy from both sides, throw shit at him. Yeah, someone will get hurt; the bastard that you would leave alone to slice up another human.

he's slicing up a guy in the seat next to him, and you're concerned about 'provoking' him?

Something to remember ....

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed people can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."

Unfortunately in this case, there were no such people on this bus.

hey "seriously", so in all of your apparent experience in knife attacks, I'm so happy for you that standing idly by while a fellow human is butchered won't couse you any guilt. And watch the exaggerations. None of the news stories mentioned a "huge guy". And it was a butcher knife not a Rambo or hunting knife. Big difference. I'm a chef and I can tell you that I would be much less afraid of a butcher knife. Hello, you can't straight stab with the thing, it has no freaking point. No one would be bashing Canada if anyone up there had some frijoles. Thank god the passengers of flight 93 acted like us brash, violent Americans. Otherwise, well you know. We make many mistakes, but at least we are not cowards.

What I am saying is that things happen really quickly and you are talking about how you are going to be Mr Courageous and tackle this guy. You have no idea what it is to be in a situation like this, yet you are so smug and condescending to the people who really were, I question your link to reality.

The fact that you are being this hateful in a blog to people who experienced something this horrific, and whose nasty comments can have no effect one way or the other at this point in the game, tells me that your cherished religion, guns and all that other bullshit have not made you the least bit honorable or courageous. Here you are slinging mud at people who have experienced something horrific and being all pompous about how you would have done better - I bet Jesus is so proud right now.

You're just a typcial coward slinging mud over the internet where no one could possibly physically hurt you. Stick to cyberspace where you can handle it.

Okay. I'm sorry. But if you think that the passengers are cowards because they wanted to get away from the danger, get away to save their own lives, get away so that no furthur harm could occur to anyone, go ahead. Unless you yourself can truthfully say that you know what that situation is like because you have experienced the same thing, shut up. Also, have you never heard of a little thing called shock? Its this state of mind that you are in when witnessing a horrific event that does not allow you to think before acting. In any First Aid class that I have heard of the first thing they always teach is that you have to make sure that you are safe yourself before rescuing the person in harms way. Whats better; one victim that is already dead? or multiple of other victims on top of the beheaded one? Alright, so I am a Canadian. I just so happen to live in the small town of Winnipeg only a few kilos away from where this happened. And since you think that Canadians are empty headed, allow me to explain to you that a kilo is short for kilometers, and that one kilometer is equal to 1.61 miles. Also, it might interest you to know that I am only 15 years old. And I do not think that because of your snap judgement that our whole country is made up of either wimps, or mass murderers. Because of the things which you have stated, you are giving me the right to make the judgement of you, that all Americans are shallow and closed minded. So, I do not care if you think that your neighbouring country is made up of what ever other words you can think of to discribe us as, but please keep them to yourself. Because, my 100% Canadian brother, looks up to your country. I wish that he loved Canada they way he loves the USA, but I cannot change his views. Rather, I accept them because you are our neighbours and we should get along, not judge each other and shoot the other down just because of where we live. Open your mind a little, I mean, come on. Grow up.

30 people rush the guy from both sides, throw shit at him.

This was on a bus, with a narrow aisle, and apparently the murderer and victim were sitting at the back. How exactly could 30 people "rush" the killer "from all sides"?

By the time anyone realized what was going on, the poor young man was probably already stabbed multiple times in the chest by a big "Rambo" style knife. Unfortunately, by that time, out in the middle of the prairie, he is as good as dead.

And many people on the bus did behave very bravely: they stayed on the bus until everyone else was off, to ensure that all the other passengers (including young children) got off safely.

After everyone was off the bus, a couple men did go back on and the killer came up the aisle at them, brandishing his holy crap knife - at that point they locked him in the bus and disabled it: in other words, contained him and kept everyone safe.

Oh yeah, for the guy who thinks the Americans on the flight that they crashed in 911 thinks those people were so much better than the people on the bus, what did they do in the first hours when threatened with plastic knives? Nothing. And what about the brave World Tower professionals who rushed in - how many people did they save - none. How many of their own got killed for no reason? A lot. HAve you saved Iraq - no. Have you killed a lot of Americans - yes. You people need to learn to engage something called a brain.

I'm done with you neanderthals.

How can many of you say that "they should have rushed him and thrown items at him?"

Look at the Sept. 11 flight crashes. Just look at how terrorists with box cutters took over planes. I could have said "Why didn't the passengers overtake the terrorists and prevented them from getting into the cockpit?" Wussies indeed!

Corection - not wussies....but pussies! A wus is someone who wants to help but doesn't have the cojones to do so. A pussy is someone whose only concern is for himself.

K, gotta go back to work, but thanks for providing this forum... and I will leave you with these parting words....

If you don't stand for something, you stand for nothing.

I am a Canadian, a proud Canadian, but am reeling from the news of this incident. My first reaction was very similar to most of the ones I have read here today. I wondered how so many people could be there and no one came to the aid of this man. I cannot rightfully or respectfully know what I myself would have done in that situation. Would I have run with the frightened masses to my own safety? Or would I have at least attempted to lend a hand in bringing down this psychopath? It’s hard to determine without ever being in such a scenario myself. When I heard that 36 people watched this man die it infuriated me. What has happened to mankind? Where is the compassion for your fellow man? I’m not saying that people need to be heroes but shouldn’t we at least give people to assistance we would have wanted had we been the victim? Living in the heart of downtown Edmonton, Alberta I have seen and heard of my fair share of gruesome tales which is enough to drive me into my home when dark comes. But how can you prepare yourself for such senseless and random violence? There had to be something that could have been done to at least attempt to save this poor young man’s life. Things to be thrown, punches and kicks to be hurdled. It is a sad day in Canada and a sad time for human existence.

I think Mr. Bingley's point is that we as human beings are supposed to come to each others aid and not just run away when one of us is attacked. We are not supposed to act like a herd of gazelles when a crocodile snaps onto one of the herd and simply flee. We should be different then a herd of dumb beasts. I don't have a clear enough understanding of exactly what happened after reading that article to judge those people on the bus one way or the other. Maybe there really was a good reason why they all abandoned that poor man, but I don't see it.

And what about the brave World Tower professionals who rushed in - how many people did they save - none.

Okay. That STOOPID statement just earned you a name change to "FerSUREBrainDeaD". So no one should ever, EVER attempt to save ANYONE EVER beCAUSE...they might just save NO ONE and get hurt their ownselves.

Words to live and die by.

What a dolt. Your flinging "engage a brain" is delicious irony.

As for the first planeloads of those poor folks on
9/11, they weren't so much victims of cowrdice as a hangover from the days of the Cuba hijackings. For those old enough to remember, there was a US airliner headed to Cuba seemingly every 40 minutes back then. And the insistent drumbeat was "Do NOT resist!! Do NOT RESIST!!" And everyone always landed safely and got sent home by Fidel on the next hijacked plane in. To their great, eternal credit, the passengers of Flight 93 HEARD what had consequently happened to the other planes and chose to ACT.

I will always believe that, had the other planes' passengers been aware of the evil intended for them, they too would have risen.

Unless you've been in this type of situation yourself you have no idea how you would react. When the stabbing started the bus was on a prairie highway out in the middle of nowhere and it was starting to get dark. According to what I've read many passengers were sleeping or watching a movie when it happened. As a previous poster suggested the poor victim was probably stabbed multiple times before anyone had any idea what was going on ... and I expect that some people probably didn't even realize what had happened until they were outside standing in the dark looking in to the bus. Three men did go back in to the bus to try to help (hopefully you folks can forgive the old women and children for not doing so) but found the attacker decapitating and gutting the victim. The attacker charged the men and attempted to get out off the bus (ie, where he could have easily killed or seriously injured other people). Fortunately, the men were able to keep the guy in the bus until police arrived. It's very easy to criticize these people for not mounting some sort of brave attack on this killer. However, what happened was so totally unexpected and unfolded so quickly (ie, seconds rather than minutes) that only an individual with training (police or military) or experience with violence (gangbanger or ex-con) would be capable of a rapid, unarmed response. If you've been on a late night bus trip, managed to rouse yourself from sleep and then successfully engaged (unarmed) and subdued a knife wielding, six foot tall, 200 pound blood covered psycho you can call these people a "bunch of little pussies". If you haven't talk is very cheap: you really don't know what you would have done under these same circumstances.

For you run away it's dangerous types. Courage is when you forsake your own safety for someone elses. Jeez, come on a knife attack does happen quickly but then what traumatic event doesn't? Gun attacks happen pretty quickly not in slo mo. For NBD hope you never have to be rescued say from a burning building I'm sure the thought of someone putting his/her ass on the line for your sorry one would be too much to handle. While I'm at it, 1 kilo equals 1.61 miles?? How about 1 mile equals 1.61 kilometers, guess school up north is not that good either. One individual, trained, one shot, murdering bastard dead. No other injuries since they were all running away. Since my .45 only hold 8 rounds 5 people wounded tops...

i live in tennessee, in the us. recently a guy walked in to a church during a children's play and started shooting. one man jumped in front of the gun while others tackled the shooter.

one new years eve when i was out with my friends some drunk guy walked in the bar, pulled out a gun and started shooting. someone tackled him to the ground before he even got past the bouncers, punched him in the face and restrained him.

when i read that all the passengers got off the bus and some stood there watching in horror.. i was surprised. it wasn't their fault though. they didn't cause it to happen and no one can say that if they tried to step in that it would have ended differently.

I wonder if this psycho felt he was ripped off at the fair booth? God knows it doesn't take much to send someoone off. How far back was he? Were there many seats behind them, does anyone know?

I don't what disturbs me more, the actual beheading, the COWARDICE of those people on the bus who did NOTHING to help that poor man, or the authorities who encouraged such DISHONOR.

It disgusts me to think we live in a culture that allows their fear to rule them. What about courage, what about their anger at what was being done to the victim? Is there no adrenaline running through anyone's veins that tells them to fight for what is RIGHT and not just fight for themselves??? Do we really live in such a selfish world where its every man for himself?! No wonder such oppression happens!

And to those of you using the idea of children, someone could have shepherded them out of the way and then everyone else could have rushed the bastard.

And if we want to quote bus attacks, how about the bus load of ELDERLY people in S. America who were hijacked, fought back and won!

People! We need to fight for each other, otherwise we disgrace our culture and bring dishonor to the very word human being!

First point, it's difficult, armed or not, in a small space to take down someone armed with a knife. As a matter of fact, in close combat training the first thing you are told is, "If they have a knife, you are getting cut." Simple as that. As a matter of fact, this just happened the other day, with room to move and attacking the man armed with a knife from two different directions, both defenders are injured. In the close confines of a bus? You're screwed. Period. In that case, more than one person would have died.

Now, as for you canadian jackasses bitching about 9/11: There is a simple fact that before 9/11, terrorists routinely threatened planes in this fashion, and if you didn't do anything, you survived a nice detour the majority of the time. 9/11 changed the thought pattern on modern hijacker defense, because now the hijackers are intent on destroying the whole, not aiming to land somewhere else or garner some form of diplomatic immunity. So drop that subject if you're not going to thoroughly think it through. Matter of factly, the assault on the terrorist controlled cockpit? Only occurred after passengers heard about the other planes used as rather large bombs.

In all honesty I think the canucks did what was proper. More than likely, unless there were trained close combat experts on that bus another person or six would be dead and or seriously injured. No more than two people at a time could attack the assailant, meaning they would have to be better armed or better trained than the suspect: preferably both. As for pepperspray: again, that's great if you have it, but pepperspray is not effective on everyone. In close confines it may well injure the person using it as well. Then you also need to think that since the suspect only has two avenues through which to be attacked, all he has to do is sit and listen to anyone coming at him, or go apeshit. Seriously, drop it. They did what was necessary and no one else was injured and the suspect was captured. I'm all for whacking someone on the spot if you have the capability, but these people did the intelligent thing given the situation.

To all of you who weren't on that bus and who have never been in a situation like this yet have the audacity to call those that were actually there cowards, I'd like to see what you would have done had you been there. It's easy to sit on your large, fat american a#@es (Lynn, Mr Bingley, tree huggin sister)and assess what should have been done, but until you've experienced something so horrendous, so surreal, please, shut-up.

I don't what disturbs me more, the actual beheading, the COWARDICE of those people on the bus who did NOTHING to help that poor man, or the authorities who encouraged such DISHONOR.

It disgusts me to think we live in a culture that allows their fear to rule them. What about courage, what about their anger at what was being done to the victim? Is there no adrenaline running through anyone's veins that tells them to fight for what is RIGHT and not just fight for themselves??? Do we really live in such a selfish world where its every man for himself?! No wonder such oppression happens!

And to those of you using the idea of children, someone could have shepherded them out of the way and then everyone else could have rushed the bastard.

And if we want to quote bus attacks, how about the bus load of ELDERLY people in S. America who were hijacked, fought back and won!

People! We need to fight for each other, otherwise we disgrace our culture and bring dishonor to the very word human being!

your right, your sitting in an chair in the comfort of your house writing this right now. By the time people noticed what was going on the poor guy was going to die no matter what, the murderer had already stabbed him multiple times in the chest. What are you going to do? try to save a man that is going to die, or to save a bus load of people that have a chance. I'm thinking the bus load of people is the better choice.
People think before you critize the actions that were taken.

Unless you've been in this type of situation yourself you have no idea how you would react.

No, of course not. But one should hope against hope that one WOULD find the intestinal fortitude SOMEWHERE in the depths of their being to come to another human being's aid. Else, what are we? Like Bingley said, gazelles fleeing and let the slowest one get eaten as long as we get away?

There are a million excuses for NOT acting and, truly, ALL of them legit, not the least of which "he was already dead.".

If you can live with yourself afterwards.

Thank God someone else saw this as I did. My initial response was WFT. I cannot believe a busload of people just ran off the bus and left that man to be beheaded. SHAME ON EVERY ONE OF YOU. That young man was only a few years older than my son. It sickens me.
PLEASE FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY DON'T FALL ASLEEP ON A GREYHOUND BUS!!!

There is not a doubt in my mind that if I were sitting where I could reach the killer I would have slugged him with one of my crutches. I would have used it like a baseball bat. I would have sent him flying.

Signed a US female age 61.

Deb, my American ass is quite shapely, thank you.

As much as I bash Canadians, I think anyone that thinks the same thing wouldn't happen in the U.S. is kidding themselves. There are plenty of videos on youtube that show us Americans doing nothing as our fellow citizens are attacked or in need of assistance. Hindsight is 20/20, but unless you were on that bus, STFU!

SHUT THE FUCK UP ALREADY!
some innocent guy died, what more is there that we can doabout that now?!
okay>?
NOW SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU CANADIANS AND AMERICANS!

Seriously is right. It's easy to read a story on the internet and decide that YOU would have been the big, brave hero who saved everyone. Very different when you're faced with a raging lunatic with a giant, bloody hunting knife, in cramped quarters and surrounded by passengers all trying to get out of the single exit. First we have armchair quarterbacks, now we're seeing the age of the armchair hero...

I understand the feeling of those of us sitting safe at home imagining what we would do, and thinking a person would rush to the aid of a person being murdered this way .But I have to also understand the shock of actually being there when some thing this horrific was happening.
I'm sure the full impact of this hasn't even hit these people yet. As for post traumatic stress, I am sure when this sets in a few of these people are going to be in therapy.
So judging this situation seems impossible for anyone that wasn't there.

rofl, I'd agree with you there Li, but most of our usual posters on here are either current or prior Marines. I have no doubt in my mind either of my folks (major dad/THS) would have been on top of this asshole attempting to see if he had any brain mass. That goes for most of our other readers as well. But again, the rub of that is we're trained close combat personel. Most of these canucks I'm willing to wager weren't.

Hmmm, seems the the Canadians are charging the murdering bastard with second degree murder, gee guess the urge to kill that guy just popped into his head and hey I just happen to have this big knife. I'd like to think everyone wouldn't be a pussy and run away because it's dangerous and tight quarters but to some I guess that would be what they would say in their armchairs. News flash some of us have been in life threatening situations and not run screaming the other way unlike some of you who are posting. Nothing like being a pacifist pussy and wanting everyone else to be one too.

if you guys have ever been driving through manitoba, through the praries, it is probably the MOST boring drive ever. peopole were half asleep, it was around 8 or 9 in the evening. they arent thinking right. if your half asleep and then here a blood curtling scream, your initial reaction is to get off that bus, and right away. you people can say what you would do, and yes, if you were a marine, you most likely would do soemthing about it. however, these were not marines, they have no training, and they live in a boring place where nothing happens, they didnt know any other way to act.

This comment blog is for opinions--the people on here who want everyone to shut up should probably go somewhere that doesn't allow others opinions.
I SAY THEY WERE COWARDS. AND I WONT SHUT THE FUCK UP. THINK ABOUT IF IT WAS YOU OR YOUR KID OR FAMILY MEMBER.
If you can't handle all the opinions on the blog don't write in and don't read it.
signed,
djdaydreams

Wow - with all you American heroes out there, I can't beleive you guys didn't finish with Iraq in a couple of days!

Hey folks ~~ None of us can pass judgment on anyone no matter what side they chose to take on this matter, due to the fact, WE WERE NOT THERE!!!!

There might have been a dozen folks sleeping just like the victim, or maybe they were listening to their ipods, or watching their Nano's, reading, daydreaming...etc...
Ya feel me...

The tragic end to this story is a young man lost his life and there is nothing any one of us can do to take this back...

All we can do now as a whole is be aware of the dangers that lie await for helpless victims, which could very well be one of us....

No need to blame and point the finger to those who were victims of a violent crime before their eyes too...

Blessings to those 30-some individuals who had to experience this tragedy along with the family who has now lost a loved one due to craziness...

Aloha

Danielle

If wars were fought acknowledging that collateral damage will happen regardless, Iraq would have been done quickly, Steven. It's this hippy bullshit concept of "we can't hurt anyone but the enemy, even if they're housing/aiding/sleeping with the enemy". That thought process that our chickenshit culture has developed is a precious boon to all of these assholes; they know all they have to do is hide in the populace. Take a look at my favorite example: The bombing of Dresden. Everyone likes to say WWII was how a war should be fought, and you know what, it was. Because we shouldn't allow hostage situations every thirty seconds. If you house the enemy, you reap the enemy's fate. Guess what, if people know that by housing or aiding the enemy, they're as likely, if not more to be injured or killed? They're gonna bloody well stop for the majority of the time. I'm not suggesting the far right "nuke `em all" strategy, precision is a necessity, but we shouldn't be pantywaisting about going in somewhere for fear of civilian causalities. They know we're coming 90% of the time. Get the fuck outta the way. You don't stand in front of a moving mac truck. So, again, drop that shit. Bloody canucks.

The sad truth of the matter is this; regardless of where this happened, in the States OR Canada, chances are the same thing would have occurred. People have become little more than scared sheep, running in fear whenever somebody brandishes a knife or a gun or a box cutter or anything else out of the ordinary.
This incident just proves the case; there were 36 people on that bus, some of them able bodied men. 36 people against 1 man. Yes he had a knife and yes someone else may have even gotten cut, or stabbed once, most likley survivable. With 36 people rushing him, he'd be hard pressed to get more than that done however.
I have not been in this situation myself, and God willing, I won't ever have to be. If I am, I hope I will not run away, I hope I will stand where no one else will. This is why restuarant and office shootings happen, this is why planes are hijacked and crashed. No one does anything. Stop being sheep people, don't be afraid to do something. You may be hurt or worse, but at least you'll go being a hero, somebody that tried to do something for once.
Imagine if the story had been, "Man saved by fellow passengers"
I'll bet his family wishes for that headline instead.

The whole thing is incredibly sad.

Amen to that Rick.

canadians are heros. we are not pussies, we help and try to resuce people, we are a heroic nation.

fact:
a week and a bit ago, a boy was burried alive with hot ashphalt while working on a construction site, everyone there was grabing the boy, trying everything they could to save the boy. one man there even jumped into the ashphalt himself to try to rescue this young man.

fact:
a few months ago there was a stabbing at my high school durring the lunch break. there were middle school students also there witnessing this event. as soon as the victim screamed 13, 14, 15, and 16 year olds rushed to the victim and used first aid untill the abulence got there. teenagers, kids. with our whole lives ahead of us, we still put ourselves in harm way to save this boy. but, it was in the middle of the day, we had energy, we werent half asleep, and we werent in a confined area with asiles only a foot wide.

fact:
in april, 2 6 foot plus 300lbs drunken men came into my backyard in the middle of the night.they were trying to break into my house. my father called the police, my mother, a WOMAN(yes woman are strong, and we can take on more than a man can), tackeled one of the drunks and held him down in the snow untill police arrived. i do not know how she did it, she is a tiny woman, but she did it. because she was brave.

fact:
Canadians are not pussies. we are brave. we are strong. and we act in a way that make sure that the best possible outcome occurs.

Ebola - "Bloody Canucks" - Indeed! Brave Canadians are perishing in Afganistan every day!

There are and have been a helluva lot of brave canadiens.

I just wish some of them had been on that bus.

Oh Americans... such talkers! It was some pyshco who was butchering a poor innocent person, do you really think that other people were gonna do anything so that they might become victims too? You think it's soo easy for all those people to just be like "ok, lets try to rush this guy and stop him?" seriously? get a grip!! Realistically, if you saw someone hacking someone to death what would be your first response? call 911? run away? or risk your own life? I doubt you would risk your own life! Just like American's to sit back and judge a situation without knowing the details.. .wow so brave you American's... judge every oneelse but don't see how wrong you are - maybe that's why the rest of the world hates Americans?

People are supposed to help one another. It's easily to critize others without knowing the details of a given situation. As for those slagging the Canadians about not helping, just remember the elderly man in Hartford that was hit by two vehicles. How many people ignored him, and drove their cars around him? No one was concerned about him, yet you feel you would have tried to help the victim. I think not!

I have to make another comment .I think a lot of people might not have been on bus or remember what it is like..
The isle is narrow. It would have taken a plan of sorts for a group of people to charge this guy. It would have been one person leading the attack.Because of the narrow isle, others trying to crawl over seats. It wouldn't have been quite as easy as some think for a group to go at once, people falling over each other.It would have been chaotic.
I just can't say these people were wrong. What was the time line, were they sleeping, shocked and confused?
When people jumped up who was in the position of jumping first on this guy? A child, A mother trying to pull her child away causing a pile up of people?
Because if one person ran towards the front, thats what happend, Rambo couldn't have gotten through.
Give these people a break..
People not there at the time can not even imagine what it was like.

Brave Canadians are perishing in Afganistan every day!

Others, however, were running off a bus.

Thank God for the internet. Constantly reminding me how stupid humans are.

Wow, I would laugh if it wasn't so tragic. The only thing sadder than this terrible event is the suggestion that the brave and appropriate responses by the driver and passengers are somehow indicative of apathy. I think what they did was amazing. Is this the new American passtime - to fantasize about ways of "kicking ass"? Shame on all you armchair vigilantes. My deepest condolences to the young man's family and to all the passengers involved, don't pay any attention to these idiots. Perhaps our American friends should investigate the story on some Canadian news sites, I can guarantee that the wording and the coverage will be quite different from whatever you are getting there.

Enough- you should be ashamed of yourselves. Have a little diginity and just pray for that poor young man's soul and his family. What gives you the right to judge others in a situation you didn't live through?! Cut the Rambo attitude and get real. Look at your own lives and what your living in. This is not about
Canada, but a poor man sitting beside a lunatic. It could have happened anywhere.

Apathy? Hardly; the people on the bus acted.

I'm a proud Canadian from Winnipeg. American's don't know Canada. They think we drink Maple Syrup mixed with Beer and watch Hockey in year round -40 Degree Weather. I actually had a customer of ours (an American) ask me why we didn't pelt them with Timbits and Beavers. I know he was joking but the underlining theme is that a young kid died. Americans are all saying they would have helped and blaming Canada for being soft. How does us as a Nation as a whole be soft? Are you saying every American would have jumped out of their seat and jump a guy cutting off another guy's head and eating his flesh? Pinch yourself!

Rambo attitude

a poor man sitting beside a lunatic

I think you Americans need to realize the following points:

- The isles on Greyhounds are narrow, and the seats can get in the way. You versus a crazed man with a big bloody knife. I'm pretty sure the psycho would win, unless you can shoot moves through the passenger seats.

- The victim was most definitely dead by the time people realized what was happening. He was STABBED IN THE NECK REPEATEDLY. I'm quite sure that it would have been a lost cause to try and save him.

- A lot of the people were sleeping when this happened. The driver yelled at everyone to leave the bus, because he was concerned for everyone's safety. The sleepyheads didn't know what was going on, and simply listened to the driver and got off the bus.

- Three men, including the bus driver, closed the door on the murderer. The psycho swiped his knife at them, and yet they were still determined to keep him contained on the bus.

Can you really call that cowardice? I don't think so.

I am an american.
I also drove a school bus for 22 years.
I had to deal with my share of fights .
I had a mirror and most the time the fight was a few blows in and I was pulling over, before students even knew there was an issue.
Many many times trying to get down the isle to get to the students was almost impossible.AS the natural instinct is to stand up and watch to see what is happening.
Getting to the fighting students, sometimes only after many blows were already taken.Not cause I wasn't trying, but because of the other students who were blocking my way. I could barely see what was happening because of the students standing up.
So I think all this speculation about these people not caring , or trying is total crap.
They were in crowded, narrow quarters, shocked, confused.
And like I said I dought Rambo could have made his way through.

Imagine if the story had been, "Man saved by fellow passengers"


How could that outcome possible have occurred? If I have a hunting/survival knife and I decide to stab to death the sleeping passenger next to me, no one is going to be able to stop me. On a long, dark, boring stretch of highway, none of the other passengers will realize what is happening until it's too late. I could stand up and stab someone, probably a dozen times in as many seconds.


It's not like the murderer stood up and announced what he was about to do. It's not like he was striking at all the passengers - he seemed intent on mutilating the body of the poor man. In that case, it seems like the bravest and smartest option of any heroic passengers would be to first help the other passengers escape. And then after that, although I would risk my life to stop an ongoing attack, I would not risk my life to stop a dangerous killer from mutilating a body.

I'm shocked to see the venom people have for the other passengers. As has been said repeatedly, there was nothing people could do by that point - everyone was sleeping when it started. And as was pointed out in an article here, there were 2 kids across the aisle - I think getting them off was one of the saner things to do.

Now, as for the second-degree murder - it would be the same in the USA. Go check what qualifies for first- and second-degree murder. As grusome as this was, it doesn't seem premeditated. If they can prove it was, it'll go to first-degree murder. The level of disgust we have towards a crime doesn't dictate the charge against the perpetrator.

All you people who think these people were cowards must be really good at playing Grand Theft Auto--because that's obviously the world you live in.

Hey Tree Hugger

Get a life- better yet get off your holier than thou attitude. Pray to God you never have to live through something like that. Again - easy to judge sitting in a chair. Walk in someone else's shoes before you can actually justify your
comments. Otherwise it's just arrogance.

Stacie, I ride one of those buses every day; I know exactly what they are like. I also know this fellow is getting a lot of press coverage:

Garnet Caton, who was sitting in front of McLean, talked of a "bloodcurdling scream" when the attack began.

"It was like something between a dog howling and a baby crying, I guess you could say," Caton said. "I don't think it will leave me for a while."

I fully recognize that it was complete and total chaos on the bus as the driver brought it to a stop and everyone piled off, and many of you are raising valid points in your defense of the passengers.

But I think poor Mr. McLean needed someone to stand up for him, even if the cause was already lost.

I do not understand how people can judge and a whole country by their reaction to one article. You guys who are such heroes were not there and the article is very vague on the details of how it even started; however you are willing to judge a whole country and call them all cowards?? There are plenty of examples all over the American news on how people leave others to die without offering any assistance... how about that poor woman lying on the floor of a hospital waiting room with American nurses and doctors looking at her and going about their business? My point is that we were not there, all we could do is try to help as many people as we can on a daily basis and not be so quick to judge a whole country when ours is hardly perfect!

But I think poor Mr. McLean needed someone to stand up for him

And all we've said is that we wonder why someone didn't. I think I also said how I could understand why they didn't BUT. We would hope in our heart of hearts that we WOULD.

But that's probably too many words for the poor 'tired' fellow to follow.

All these comments are being made but not one person noticed the following...unlike the United States, violence such as this is not common in Canada. We perpetuate peace from our politics to our society. So when something as graphic and gruesome such as this happens we are not perpared. The reaction of the driver and individuals was the right thing. As far as everyone knows the kid was already dead, so what would they be saving? a corpse? Also, when you are half asleep and in a relaxed state how would one react...it is our instinct to run and not stop and fight. It is our instinct to save ourselves especially if you really have no idea what is going on. And have any of you been on a bus? There isn't enough room to walk to the bathroom without banging into at least one person. The best course of action was to protect everyone else from this lunatic and that is what was done. The sad thing is that a young kid died. Instead of talking about cowardice, think about this kid and a family who has lost a son. It such Americanized attitudes of violence that has most of the world lacking in respect for the United States.

That tree hugger served her country, and learned how to deal with aggressors. How about you cupcake?

And Bing, dearest uncle of mine, I reiterate, unless any of those people had training in close combat, acting with physical violence against him was not rational.

As far as everyone knows the kid was already dead, so what would they be saving?

It is such EUROPEANIZED ATTITUDES of NON-VIOLENCE that has us lacking respect for your point, N.K.D.

If only there was but 1 brave American on that bus, I'm convinced now that the lunatic would have been totally disarmed and subdued with split-second precision.
As if!

Are all you ignorant people retarded? leave it to americans to take a canadian tragedy, which is like any other day in the U.S., and totally twist it.talk is cheap, and its funny how americans say that they would have done differently when people continuously hear that 80 year old men are struck by cars and left for dead while about 30 on lookers do nothing? People are chased with guns and knives and people casually watch then finally think to call 911.
The man was armed with a hunting knife, and as for the poor young man who was killed, he was gone before anyone could have helped, and the attacker was in a different world.The people were on a little bus with little room to move much less fight someone who "is like a robot" with a hunting knife.
Typical americans, instead of expressing any type of sympathy for the poor witnessess of this brutal, and fatal attack, blame is given to them for not doing more.

Steven Baekeland

I don't think anyone's even implied that, OR even a happy ending at all. Just wondering aloud 'what if someone tried'.

And it has nothing to do with "American", which I wouldn't expect the myriad Canadians visiting our board to realize. It has to do with humans beings responding to the desperate need of another human being. Time and again, we've discussed "WHY didn't somebody DO something" circumstances in this country here.

I am absolutely sickened by this story. Every time I think about it I feel sick.

Reading all of these people calling the others on the bus cowards.. ticks me off. Every last one of you would run others down to get out of the door first. I would bet on it. It is easy to talk big about taking the guy down when you are at home and not on that bus. The guy who sat in front of the situation had to hit people to wake them up. The bus driver and a few others (including the guy who sat in front of the situation) did try to go back in but the guy lunged at them with a knife. They had to barricade him in the bus to save the rest of the people. Perhaps if the guy had gotten out 30+ people could have jumped him but at what risk?? Him escaping?? Him getting away??? More people dying?

By the way Canadians have "frijoles".... we stood up to you didn't we when we felt the Iraq war was wrong.

I for one am thankful to live in Canada...where we don't have to live our lives in fear of our shadows unlike you.

Sure, it could have gone down differently--if a passenger had been armed and able to get a clear shot, etc., etc. But, under the circumstances, it is probably a miracle that no one else was slashed or stabbed by the madman as people scrambled to get off the bus. As for Americans reacting differently--nonsense. It could just as easily have happened here. Our sympathies should be with the family of the victim and with the passengers.

Is the tree hugger serving her country now? It's attitudes like that that have the rest of the world questioning this great USofA. and turning away from it's RAMBO mentality.
I'd say no- not much dignity in the arrogance of it.

There is a lot of misinformation on this site. The people did not stand and watch. They fled for their own lives, not knowing precisely what was going on.

Further, the bus aisles only accommodate one person at a time. It would be impossible for more than one person to intervene at a time. Anybody, who did try by themselves would have surely and quickly been injured by the knife.

Our Canadian society is not accustomed to such violence. I believe any person (including arm chair heroes) would have been stunned and in utter confusion with the speed in which this happened. After all, it was late evening and the other passengers were having a peaceful ride. Who would be prepared for such an event.

New details emerge, from The Globe and Mail. There is a lot more information in this article now, including the first brief court appearance, and including the following details of the attack:

Night was closing in and passengers were dozing off as The Legend of Zorro played on the television screen.

Mr. Caton [who was sitting in the row immediately in front of the killer and victim] said the attack was utterly unprovoked.

He watched in horror as the man, described as tall and well-built with close-cropped hair, plunged his hunting knife into the victim eight or nine times, sending blood spraying across the back of the bus.

The driver, hearing the screams, pulled to the side of the road and opened the doors, allowing passengers to flee.

...
One mother, who was seated near the back, threw her toddler forward several rows to get the child away from danger, a witness said.

Mr. Caton, who served five years in the Canadian Forces and was closest to the attacker, paused before leaving, torn momentarily between concern for his own safety and the thought of abandoning the bleeding victim. He turned to another man nearby and asked for his help.

“I said, ‘Give me a hand and let's get this guy.' And the other guy took off,” he said.

It was only moments later that the victim's screams went silent. Mr. Caton knew he was too late.

Mr. Caton jumped off the bus, and was met by a trucker who had stopped after seeing the commotion. The trucker grabbed a crowbar and Mr. Caton got a hammer and they tried to contain the attacker on the bus. The attacker swung his knife at them through the partially closed bus door.

Then the incident became even more macabre. The attacker returned to the victim's side and began sawing through his neck. A few moments later, he walked to the front of the bus holding a decapitated human head, displaying it to the 34 passengers and the bus driver standing outside.

...
Reports from the scene indicate the man then ate pieces of the corpse.

we stood up to you didn't we when we felt the Iraq war was wrong

And frijoles are refried beans, by the way. I think you meant "cajones".

You are right Stephanie:

How many You Tube videos of people TAPING a knife fight on a NY subway car or NY streets are there. More than I would like to think about. Talk about cowards.

I only have something very brief to add. I found everyone's comments on this forum very intriguing and I think it's good to get a dialogue going about events like this when they happen. However, I think everyone needs to take one giant step back and realize that all of the people on that bus experienced something terrible - they are victims as well. Can any of you imagine living a normal life after going through something like that? I sure can't and I don't think it is fair to criticize their actions unless you, too, have been on a Greyhound bus where someone was attacked and decapitated - maybe then you actually KNOW what you're talking about.

That being said, I am a Canadian and I am damn proud of it. I have been to the US many times, all over. A lot of the stereotypes that the entire world holds true about the US are not fair, because not all Americans are the same, just like all Canadians are not the same. However, most of the Americans who have posted their "those cowards should have attacked that psycho" type comments are the reason that most of the world views Americans as violent, arrogant, and incredibly ignorant. As a stereotype for the US as a whole, I do not agree; as an accurate description of all those people on this forum casting judgment toward those poor people on that Greyhound, I agree 100%.

Say what you want, I would still prefer to live absolutely anywhere in Canada than the nicest place in the United States. I choose a country where we don't have a kill-or-be-killed mentality and we try to solve problems using rational thought instead of guns. Enjoy the "better" world you think you are creating.

Great addendum, don. GREAT. Good for Mr. Caton, bless his brave heart and the truck driver who stopped.

Come on people..
You WERN'T there..Who in their right mind would expect to have somthing this horrific happen?
The other people on the bus were victims too.
Remember 9-11? I remember seeing hundreds of people running "away' from the towers.
Lets concede there was 'ONE' coward on the bus..(Just as a example).Could have been a child, a mother a old lady..(who knows)
So they run screaming to the front. Others hear screaming, can't see anything.Cause most couldn't once people stood up.
What the normal reaction..?? Run with the crowd and wonder what the hell was happening.
Hey, we all want to be hero's..Thank goodness we have video games and we can 'play' hero every day if we want..
I think as tragic as this was , it is really cruel to make it worse by calling the other victims on that bus cowards.
If any of them feel cowardly they will forever have to live with it.If not why label them as one?

You are right Don but I was quoting a guy who use the word "frijoles"

Last I checked, the Canadian political set concerning the invasion was over "international law" about border violation, even though your own gov't intelligence supported the idea that Saddam's regime possessed WMDs.

As for thankful to live in Canada? I'm thankful you live there too, personally I wish all the other peace mongering twits would move that way too. Then maybe a war could be waged in the method a war should be waged, brutal and quick. Winds up saving more lives that way.

"Canada is like a loft apartment above a great party."

Guys, can't we all just use spellcheck? First, we neglect those in distress, now spelling and grammar? It's a slippery slope.

"As for thankful to live in Canada? I'm thankful you live there too, personally I wish all the other peace mongering twits would move that way too. Then maybe a war could be waged in the method a war should be waged, brutal and quick."

People like you are the reason Americans are hated around the world. Attitudes like that are also the reason that peace will never happen in the world. Thanks so much for keeping the war industry booming, but you would probably be better off focusing attention on your own country that's letting down its own people with a crumbling economy and one of the world's worst health care systems.

Uh, Jennifer ?. 1 mile is 1.6 kilometers. You got it backwards.

I think we'd all like to have done something had we been there, but it's easy to be armchair analysts in this situation.

Apparently this is a website whose inhabitants are all heroes. HAHAHA! Ya'll are such liars. I doubt 1% of anyone here saying they would do something, or calling people pussies for not doing something would actually do anything if they were in the same position. First off, the guy was stabbed in the neck at the very beginning of the attack. Chances are that he was a done deal from the first seconds of the attack. Second, maybe the attacker had some military knowledge, one never knows, and appearences can be deceiving. And as mentioned before, you can't save someone that's already dead. Third, how many of you have been in a knife fight or a shoot-out? Oh, really? I've been in a knife fight, without a knife. It's not fun. If the knife is sharp enough you would be amazed at how many cuts one can get without even knowing it. And this was with a mini Japanese blade. If you think you, or these people would try to stop a guy with a butcher knife, you are lying to yourself. Just because you watched the Dark Night doesn't make you Batman. The cramped space actually would work against grabbing anything to use. Wouldn't it suck to get stabbed in the gut while grabbing a overhead piece of luggage to save the dead guy? And lastly, to claim Americans wouldn't let this happen is just crazy. We are not Israel where everyone has military training. Here in America we've let people die on subways, doctor offices, etc. and not even noticed, or walked on in spite of it. And to the guy who praised the Flight 93 passengers, well sure they fought back and are valiant for such, but look how they ended up. Also, they HAD to do it...they were going to die, whereas with the bus passengers there was a dead guy already and they had the opportunity to save themselves. I guarantee you if there had been parachutes on Flight 93 anyone able to grab one would have been jumping. Not to mention the amount of blood that was probably sprayed all over the bus. This alone, along with the scream, probably prompted almost all the people on the bus to run. I know we all aspire to stand strong in the face of evil and we want more than anything for others to believe us, but honestly there are very few humans who really are willing to do so.

Remember Kitty Genovese. That happened in the States, in Queens. 30-something people watched her get stabbed to death, from the safety of their apartment windows, and no one even called 911. This is not about Canada vs. the US. This is about human behavior. It's hard to explain, and none of us knows how we would react, so please, let's all save the bravado and judgment.

Matt thanks for figuring it out. You're awesome! Great use of the 'Caps Lock' key.

Hate to break it to you dear, but war is a human necessity. I can't think of one time in recorded human history that there wasn't physical conflict occurring. People like me aren't the reason America is hated, it's people like you that don't get their bloody peacenik socialistic ways met on demand. Peace would be lovely, but realism is...ain't gonna happen kid! People like you give power to the people that would take an aggressive stance. I'm not being an aggressor, I'm merely saying war should be carried out in an efficient fashion. And adhering to your people's jackass commentary on the proper rules of engagement is laughable...but for some reason we still seem to capitulate to you on it...and then we sit back and wonder why a war takes for bloody ever to either putter out, lose or "win".

As for the health care systems, have you looked at your own lately? I don't call people performing their own bloody dental routines a "functioning" health care system. Also, our economy is currently stable if you look at the statistics (not that you would have bothered, that would defeat your marxist arguing stylings). Also, if we cut off aid to all the people that YOU WON'T, we'd probably have a surplus rather than a deficit. Amusing when you actually look at something resembling the whole picture, but I digress.

Tree-Hugging Sister:
We in Canada are just sooo beholden to you brave Americans who won't even post their real names on a blog! Thank God we had you guys to rescue us at the ass-end of 2 World Wars!

Did I miss something Steve? Did you guys get invaded or bombed by Germany? Damn, I must have missed where Nazi Germany stormed Toronto.

Thank you Heidi, I couldn't remember her (Kitty Genovese)name and I wanted to use her as an example. To all Canadiens here, I apologize for the idiocy and machismo being projected by my fellow Americans here. We can be fools. Apparently all the Americans here have watched the movie Boondock Saints about 50 too many times.

And we're sooo awful glad you came by to visit, Steven.

Lots to think and talk about.

But I will admit, that last little 'gotcha' of yours has me even more befuddled, point-wise. Separated by a common language, mayhap?

I think there are far more current examples of man's inhumanity/apathy to his fellow man than a 1964 murder, n'est pas? And we've probably had something to say about them, too.

I've already supported that the passengers made the correct move. And yes, I support the idea of efficient wars and dislike peacenik hypocrites. Don't go lumping me in as a right-wing sadomasochist, Matt. It's already been said this hasn't a damn thing to do with nationality, it's a question of morals, which quite obviously Americans, Lithuanians, Egyptians, Russians (well, maybe not) might well have the same end response to a given scenario. The Canadians on the forum simply want to feel they've been slighted and somehow this is a national, not ethically tactical question. But for argument's sake, hell, I'm happy to indulge.

I know we all aspire to stand strong in the face of evil and we want more than anything for others to believe us, but honestly there are very few humans who really are willing to do so.

Tree-Hugging Sister & Ebola:
Your obvious and copious bravery is palpable, even from the nether regions of cyberspace!

I'm brave for saying they made the right move. Thanks Steve, coming from an upstanding narcissistic nationalist such as yourself, I damn near feel complicated.

Being rational Ebola and having courage are separate things. Like I said before courage is setting aside your welfare for another's. Stop all this Canada and America bashing we're talking just the people on the bus. And why can't we call these people cowardly? It sure wasn't heroic. If you are tired of THS get off the blog. I guess the correct thing to say according to all you out there is "how tragic and yep I would have run like hell too". I like that "well he was dead anyway", boy like to have you covering my six. Funny how the most vitriol is aimed at those who would like to think someone would have the brass to actually do something vice lookout for their own hide. Guess believing in man's nature to do something good is somehow warlike or barbaric. on a tactical note, the small confines of a bus lend themselves well to rushing a single target with overwhelming mass, he can't move either. That's for those who are thinking about what could have been done aside from those who want to start more individual bashing.

Bert, I so agree with you. A bus is a very cramped space. This happened at the back of a bus. It would take one person, running for the front, and there is your chance at stopping the guy. What if that one person was a mother with her child? How long would it take a person to get back to bus in time to save the poor man?

As for that comment by DJ (a 61 year old female). I would love to see you try and swing your crutches on a coach bus - maybe on a city bus, but there is zero room for you to swing crutches at a person.

The one different think between Canada and US reaction is that in the US, some granny would have a gun in her purse and blow the bastard away - then again - in the US this nut-case would have an AK-47 and spray everyone on the bus with bullets.

Name calling. I'm stunned it has come to this.

Ok I'm about to do something that rarely happens in blogs, or ever for that matter. I'm going to appologize and restate my points. First off, I truly hold no negative sentiments towards Canada and her citizens. Good people. My comments were merely a continuation of the "banter" that America endures from the world, and I'm being polite here. We are so used to being called horrible names that my implication of Canadians being cowards was intended with the same jocularity that brothers and sisters often enjoy. Oh, for the canadians who are bashing American military action, think twice; your brave servicemen and women have generally been with us through it all. Let's face it, the US and Canada have each others backs, which is the way it should be.
For those who said this horrible tragedy could happen anywhere, you are absolutely correct. This shit can and does happen everywhere. I'm going to take a leap of faith for a moment and suggest that what many of us, including myself, are reacting to is the seemingly unusual number of tragic incidents lately that involved what was ARGUEABLY gross misjudgements, inaction or outright caliousness. IE: The Italians who sunbathed among dead Roma children; New York City's Kings Hospital where a women died on the floor of a waiting room while others literally sat and watched (Yup that would be us Americans), and of course our tragic topic of discussion.
And to respond to some of the highly informed responses to my earlier post: Well I'm not religious (and never mentioned it), I do have personal experience of which I feel no need to re-live for your benifit (I wasn't always a cook), I also never said I would do better I just KNOW that I would try. And finally the passengers did act intelligently and wisely. Fortunately no one else will suffer the same fate by that lunatics hands. I simply wish someone had tried, just tried.
And just a parting piece of advice. Don't assume. Ever. Be good to each other and may the family find peace. Once again, all appologies. Much love Canada.

Hey, you started the sarcasm train, bucko, and I'm all for a free ride at your expense.

As for MRK, that's not true, as was said before, American response to similar situations has been quite nearly the same, with the exception of the fact that most Americans that wouldn't have a response, wouldn't have bothered calling the authorities either.

Where the AK is concerned, that's a bit stereotypical. Should I end this sentence with "aye" to make my point?

What can I say. As a canuck we're not that used to homicidal idiots on every street corner. Thats just one of the other differences between Canada & the US.

Look at what bloodlust gets you, an illegal war in Iraq, thousands dead; all thaks to a moron that was re-elected as president.

One note to "Tree Hugging Sister" they did'nt show up unitl the end of WW1, missing such events as The Somme; 50,000 troops killed in one day. They might have ran back home.

"I'm all for a free ride at your expense."
Would I be wrong in pointing out the irony in this stereotypical American attitude?

While I agree with the norm/psychopath ratio comment D, the illegal war comment is quite inane, ditto with the WW1 comment. Here's why:

Your argument is that the war is illegal, when history has proven the legality of war is always determined by the victor (seeing as they are generally the ones writing the history books afterwards). As for WW1, you argue we entered a war illegally, and then bring this up? We stood back, analyzed and then entered (which is exactly what the canadian gov't argued for with Iraq)...so, we're wrong on both accounts because it doesn't suit your argument? Gotta be one or the other kid, sorry.

The correct expression is "eh?", Ebola, just for the record.

Sorry, was just going phonetically, didn't think it was worth lookin up. =P

Oh, please. Give me a break. Canadians are p$@##&s for not jumping the guy? How many stories are there of Canadian women being raped while entire neighborhoods ignored their screams? How many stories in Canadian indifference? It us - the Americansd (Yes, I'm reluctantly admitting that I'm American) who embarrass ourselves with indifference and ignorance (see this thread for evidence) on a regular basis.

Of course I hope I would jump in and try to save a helpless victim. But I'm ot the one woken from a nap in a very small space by the scream of a man being attacked by a psycho. By evacuating the bus, they probably saved more lives. It's tragic that Mr. McLean was murdered. But I truly believe that if anyone had tried to help before securing the situation, there would have been more fatalities.

(Apparently, we ebarrass ourselves with a lack of proofreading, too. Sorry!)

Well, actually D a "free ride" in the context in which it's commonly used typically means its free "because" its at the expense of someone else. Not ironic at all.

Anyways being American myself "irrelevant though" I can't say I would have reacted one way or another in the moment of the attack since god gave me no more courage then the next guy. I do find it extremely arrogant of anyone to criticize anyone else for what they did or didn't do in such a horrible situation. Lest it be a child being attacked I may have been the first off the bus, don't know. I have seen to many news reports in this country where someone is being attacked in the middle of the day and no one see's anything.

Fist of all, it seems that it matters to state where you are from in all of this... I'm from Ontario, Canada. I don't care if you're Canadian or American, the fact that people are trying to prove others wrong and arguing about facts that don't seem to really matter is disgusting. Anyone can say that they would do this or they would do that. You weren't there! I have no idea what I would do in a situation like that and I hope I never have to find out.

Everyone from Canada says that there are a lot of American idiots... I say Canada has a lot of idiots too... The United States just have more because of a great population.

Proud to be North American...

I like the tactic of interjecting trite American stereotypes and the Iraq War (very analogous to this situation....) in attempts to make points. Defensive much, eh?

I never mentioned anything about if this would have happened in America at all, I said Texas, completely different place. And yes I'm very sure of what I would do in this type of situation, Very Sure.

Some additional details here.

Ride away Ebola, I just wanted to demonstrait that not all Americans are assholes, at least not all the time. Thank you for supporting my point (insert sarcasm). I hope you have a lot of stripes my friend. You speak like a brash young officer, who perhaps thinks a bit too highly of themselves. I served with attempted draft dodgers who demonstraited more respect than you. Ok that may be going a bit far but you get the drift. Your experience is wonderful (not sarcasm), but really, must you critique every response. Try listening more. You might actually hear something.

I'm very sure what I would do, too:

Pee my pants. And I'm from NJ, and as much as you Texans like to think you're tough...

To quote a book I pretty much never quote: Judge not, lest you be judged. You can pretend to be sure, but until you're standing next to a 6' tall psycho covered in blood and holding a butcher knife, you don't know.

Some additional details

BraVO and good on 'em! THAT's the story that needs to be told.

Unless you were on the bus.. you should not talk about what the others on the bus could have done. Put yourself in the 37 passengers shoes. I know that if I was them I think I would have crapped my pants and would have wanted to get off the bus before I would have thought to go after a man with a knife

The armchair heroes on this blog are suffering from delusions of grandeur. In hind sight, in this case, the very idea that any one of those passengers could have saved that unfortunate young man from that no-conscience, deranged murderer is preposterous. Suggesting that 30 people should have just rushed to the back of the bus where the madman was wielding his butcher knife into the victim and simply taken it from his hand?? Or, throw articles at the guy to render his knife from his hand?? Are you seriously suggesting that is what YOU would have done?? You have no clue what you’re talking about. Judging those passengers so harshly and to call them “pusseys” shows just how deluded you are. In the confined narrow space of the bus isle, it’s already getting dark, you’re half asleep or waking up from being asleep, you spontaneously run to the victim who is already gone to save him?? Wake up from your hero dream, and get back to reality people!!

Kudos to those passengers on the bus for handling the situation in the manner they did.
We should all be grateful for the 3 heroes: bus passenger Caton, the bus driver and the truck driver for containing the murderer in the bus till police arrived so that no other victims could be had by him.

I find it curious that you would call me a brash young officer, coward. Why? Well, because I've done nothing but support my point of view, which was that the passengers did the correct thing. Not once have I said, "Were I in that situation, I would have pulled out my RPG, stuck it in his bum, and pulled the trigger. Then I would have proceeded to dance a bloody jig while I memorialized my heroic event upon that very spot." As a matter of fact, I haven't even insinuated what my response would have been, because in all honesty, having not been in that situation, I've no idea. Perhaps you should attempt your own advice and actually read my responses in their entirety. I'm all for the preservation of human life, if perhaps not by methods other seem to, in my mind hypocritically and/or non-analytically, condone.

You somehow suggest, in an ironic manner just as highhanded as you accuse me of mine, that I should bow to your point of view, simply because you have it? How communist of you.

As for why I respond so often? Because I'm sitting in my office bored as hell at the moment and this is something that interests me. Any other questions?

Exactly, Angie.

I mean, imagine it. Not only is there this psycho and his victim, but at least one 6-year-old child and elderly woman, both of whom we have to assume would not rush in to jump the attacker and who mich have actually tried to get away. So now, we expect the other 30-some passengers to trample the kid and the old lady?

They acted with common sense - far more that I can confidently assert that I would have acted with.

creatrix, they nearly did trample one lady

Mr. Caton ran to the front of the bus and screamed at the driver to stop. The bus pulled to the side of the highway about 20 kilometres east of Portage la Prairie. Some passengers needed to be roused from sleep or shock, but within seconds they were all on their feet and pushing towards the front, knocking one woman over as they fled the attacker, who stabbed his victim in the chest, neck, arms, legs and stomach.

I'm confused. All of the apologists and pacifists keep saying: "... but ... but he was already dead!"

If he was already dead - how was he able to scream?

---------

And enough with the blanket generalizations. This is a discussion about the people on the bus, not some broad-brush analysis of entire countries.

Yeah, Mr. Bingley. Good point. But she and the child and the rest of the passengers are safe. If there had been people running in two different directions down the aisle, I'm not sure that would have been the outcome.

PB, I agree. But it does sound like it was over pretty quickly. I thnk the rule of thumb is to control the situation first, and at that point, with 35 terrified people all in a very small space with a knife-weilding psycho, the situation was very much NOT in control. For starters, now we know this was a lone guy. But if you are on the bus, how do you know he doesn't have a partner in another part of he bus? All they knew was that they were in mortal danger, and they didn't necessarily know from whom. They needed to be able to assess the situation and keep as many people safe as possible.

This is a discussion about the people on the bus, not some broad-brush analysis of entire countries.

correct.

Why do everybody keep saying there were 30 cowards and all that stuff? Wherever you are in the world, some people will be brave and try to save others, but the majority will run for their lives.
As for people saying the quick and clean war by destroying everything in a given territory...
Can I remind you that there weren't much casualties before the first World War. An army in front of another army, the last army with men alive won, non-armed person were taken prisonner (probably rapped too)(I admit, was stupid war, but not killing everyone)
As for peace never happening, I agree that some people are blinded by peace as for it will never happen, but why, just based on this fact, to continue war cause we know peace will never be there?

Not sure I understand your point fully Max. Are you asking why we consider continuing our current wars? Or making war in the future? The reasons why are legion. Changes for each conflict. If you're talking why do we continue to maintain a presence in Afghanistan or Iraq? Honestly to me it's not even a matter of what started it, it's that pulling out would in the end cost more lives than keeping a presence until they can police themselves.

I know there's gonna be someone to say it, so yes, and companies and gov't's will enjoy staying there to make money and tighten strings as well. That's how the world rumbles. I don't believe it's intelligent not to strike out and do war when necessity (as I believe we might be quickly approaching with Iran) dictates. Was entering Iraq a gross overextension of power? Yes. And especially considering the sociopolitical terrain now. Point is, we're there now, and we need to consolidate what gains we have, both for our own sake and theirs. Learn from the past to plan for the future.

Now, BOTH of you ~ stick to the bus. Please.

Sorry mum, she made me curious. =P

Thank God someone else saw this as I did. My initial response was WFT. I cannot believe a busload of people just ran off the bus and left that man to be beheaded. SHAME ON EVERY ONE OF YOU. That young man was only a few years older than my son. It sickens me.
PLEASE FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY DON'T FALL ASLEEP ON A GREYHOUND BUS!!!

Posted by: DJ at August 1, 2008 11:46 AM

Yes, thank God someone else is as stupid as you are. The kid was probably long dead before people even figured out what the hell was going on. The beheading definitely occured afterwards. Get your head out of your ass and drop the manufactured outrage over an event you're not even familiar with.

Listen Twitties!
I'm a Dudley Do Rite and I HAVE saved the lives of at least 8 men and children in my time , putting myself in personal danger to do it.
And I WOULDN'T jump in to help the guy without assessing the situation first.
It make sense for a bunch of passengers to rush some terrorist on Flight 93 cause they HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE. It makes sense to tackle a guy with a gun cause he can SHOOT YOU IF YOU WALK AWAY.
To rush INTO the close one person aisle front range of a knife wielding psycho who has already killed someone , well that is only something I guess an American would do. And I would encourage you to go first.
By the way, we won both the First AND Second world wars. You blew 1812, Korea, Nam and Iraq.
The only war you won was when you were klling each other in 1865.

I just read more of what happend on the bus from a link here.

After everyone was off the bus an attempt to go back on was made, but the guy with the knife came towards the front again.They got off, blocked the door and kept him from getting away.
To me it seems, very quickly most people became level headed and in control for such a horrific situation.
I also think with the amount of blood that must have been involved, there was probubly a presumption that the man was already dead. ( which would seem correct ) In the panic of the moment we act on instinct.It is not until we have a moment to access a situation that we can react with intent, and until people were off the bus, fully awake and able to think clearly time passed..Sounds like a short time
From what I read keeping this mad man on the bus and making sure he isn't at large right now was nothing short of bravery.
Their ordeal is not over..This will be a lifetime of trauma for everyone on the bus. Years of asking themselves the "what ifs"..And none of us were there and none of us have the answers.
Being judgmental and critical is just ridiculous.

Yes, thank God someone else is as stupid as you are. The kid was probably long dead before people even figured out what the hell was going on. The beheading definitely occured afterwards. Get your head out of your ass and drop the manufactured outrage over an event you're not even familiar with.

I'm stupid cuz of mine and looks like the majority has an opinion on something I obviously read about? you piece of shit. You were not on the bus so your assumption that he was dead is an assumption. I read the witness' statement. The guy screamed before they all jumped up and left him there. so fuck you my opinion as a person who graduated college with honors (not stupid cs) is that someone should have done something CUZ DEAD PEOPLE DONT SCREAM

I find it so interesting how you have judged the situation from your comfortable homes and from behind a computer.
Canada does not have this type of violence normally and therefore our reaction is not an automatic "let's jump him" or "grab your gun and get him".
I would be more concerned that this person didn't hurt anyone else, then to put everyone in jeopardy because I felt I needed to be a super hero and take on a man with a butcher knife.
This man was 6 feet tall and weighed 200 lbs and attacked the victim so quickly that even if you were successful at getting the weapon out of his hand, the victim would already be dead.
How very American to make this about how "courageous" you would be and not about how terrifying this must have been to everyone on that bus.
Fight or flight is an instinctual action and I think that every person on that bus made the right decision.
But go back to your stereotypes and your judging and make yourselves feel like heroes.

Bravery is not the absence of fear but the ability to face and overcome it.

This is the best definition of bravery I can come up with.

Does that definition fit with the actions of the people who were on that bus?

There is not now, nor has there ever been, to my knowledge, any visible security on any Greyhound bus line traveling anywhere; also, there is very little on trains, or any other form of public transporation. I have traveled on the bus recently and I was nervously apprehensive throughout the entire trip. There have been several "strange", injurious or deadly incidents on Greyhound busses in recent years. All you have to do to board public transportation is be able to pay the fare. Also, keeping in mind that most mental institutions have closed or are so overcrowded that they are not available to the individuals that need them. So, the math on that indicates that there are too many people with mental and spiritual problems navigating our streets and public transportation systems, free to do whatever, whenever. I would immediately suggest that if one is traveling and owns a law enforcement uniform, even a security guard shirt, perhaps it would help to wear it. I also think that there should be "roaming" undercover agents/cops/security that Greyhound should hire to sit at or near the back of the bus to monitor behavior of patrons -- particularly, since the bus driver's back is to the riders. There should be rules about tolerated behavior, and people should be put off the bus if they do not comply; this should be common knowledge among riders and it should be enforced. Even deranged people tend to act noticeably different when they believe they will be put off public transportation in the middle of nowhere. Nevertheless, as we were told, even after committing such a heinous crime and being covered in another person's blood, the murderer could still reason, and understood that he was now confined to the bus and that the authorities had been notified and were enroute. Decidedly, he tried to "escape" his impending capture and likely incarceration and subsequent consequences by atempting to escape out of a bus window. Psychopath or not, he understood that message of authorities being called, and he understood that his destiny was dependent on his ability to escape the powers that be. There recognize deterents, even in their perverted judgment. Just saying that in passing. And I whole-heartedly agree with the person who said NEVER, EVER go to sleep on any kind of public transportation. You should never let your guard down, because you may need ALL of your wits about you at any given time -- because you DON"T know the history or the current state of mind of the stranger sitting next to you. As for whether the people were cowards or not, I suppose it could have gone either way -- there could have been more bloodshed or perhaps the victim's life could have been saved by people trying to subdue the attacker. I suppose if it were you or your relative, you would have hoped that someone would have helped, because the situation demanded help. That's all I will say on that. This is very traumatic in alot of ways. I am very sorry for the victim and his family.

HEY D.J.!
You ARE proof that Dead People DO Scream!
You got Honours? AND Reproduced TOO?
What University did you get your degree from?
Grammer Is Us Sho Nuff Uniniversitaaa?

Let us not forget that bravery and stupidity are not mutually exclusive. Just because someone has the cajones to rush a knife-wielding psycho does NOT mean it is the smart thing to do, and in this instance, I believe it would have been a very stupid thing to do and it would have cost lives.

BurnWashingtonAgain, one more outburst like that and you're gone, capeche?

You know he was on anti-depressants. Thus the zombie like behavior. It is time that the drug companies and doctor prescribing the drugs start getting tried as accessories to murder in these cases. Enough is enough.

I don't think this has to do with being an American or Canadian. Just the idea of someone stabbing another person sleeping on a bus is pretty weird and scary. Yes, I thought about why the people on the bus didn't try to stop the crime, but I thought more about why would someone stab another person like that for no apparent reason? There was nothing wrong with the people who ran off the bus. I think that was normal, like a Fight or Flight response, it was the human thing to do. Yes fear, so flee. Protect your own life. But after everything has happened, it's easy to say, "oh I should have done this...or that..." but it already happened. Who would expect something like this would happen? Just riding a bus! No one is prepared. It's not expected, unless you know that someone riding in the bus is a gang member or trouble maker, then you know you can be on your guard. Otherwise this was a surprise for everyone.

Otherwise this was a surprise for everyone.

Jail the doctor... do you have ANY idea how many more people become murderous because the REFUSE to take their meds? What we need is an overhaul of the mental health system. I don't know the laws in Canada, but in the States, we cannot legally force someone to take meds until AFTER they have committed a violent crime. Add to that the fact that we have virtually no system in place for assuring that the poor have access to mental healthcare and people cannot be committed against their will, and those meds you are so quick to demonize become our last hope.

those meds you are so quick to demonize become our last hope.

The pills are FINE, BUT!

How do you get them to take them? There's no mechanism for that.

ok---Canada does not have this type of violence normally --this is crap. you have serial killers --(check out the crimelibrary right here on cnn.) just like us. You have feet washing up on your shores that your cops cant figure out. unlike us. Now you have psychos on buses (guess what) just like us. They are everywhere. You got we got em we are pretty even. I would have written what I wrote no matter where this happened.
Blue Jeans, I love your definition of bravery, sista

HEY D.J.!
You ARE proof that Dead People DO Scream!
You got Honours? AND Reproduced TOO?
What University did you get your degree from?
Grammer Is Us Sho Nuff Uniniversitaaa?

Posted by: BurnWashingtonAgain at August 1, 2008 04:51

you wanna make this personal asswhole? You feel like a big TYPER being so nasty online?
what r u some stumpy little man with a 2 inch pecker and a 400 pound wife or is it the other way around?
Is that what you want you piece of shit? There you go you got it.

D, behave yourself. It's been addressed.

i know you guys have been arguin about how quick this all went down with the whole dead people screaming thing...but the way i have thought about it goes sorta like yes the victim did scream, but that was probably very immediately before he was stabbed enough times beyond saving...the way i figure it, by the time the screaming happened...and people realized what was happening it was probably too late...im not sayin this is what happened...just the way i picture it

I apologize and thank you.

My pleasure. It's been a really good back and forth. We can keep it pretty civil however fiercely we press our points.

Well, it's possible. I think maybe shock could be a part of it too. It bothers me. That is how I feel. They fled. Maybe that was the best thing to do. But people, smart or stupid, do brave things everyday. On 911 a retired service ran into one of the towers and helped people out. Smart, stupid? Isn't really the question is it? Brave and compassionate is the answer. Call me what you want but in every corner of this world we need more people to step up for each other or the patients will be running the asylum.

Right D.J.
Like I said, you first, down the aisle,
on the knife, be brave.
And compassionate. And dead.
Dead and brave and compassionate. With honours too.

It is terrible that this devisive, violent, but as his lawyer would try to say insane, person murdered this man and could probably just get committed. First-degree murder, not second. The victim and his family did not deserve this. I must agree as a human you get scared but you should have courage to react, to help your fellow man even if it seems futile. It seems unbelievable for so many to watch and listen to someone suffer and not help. I'm a female and have witnessed violence and people do get involved-not superheroes, probably never witnessed a crime before, just trying to stop the perpertrator; that is a natural, humane reaction. Where were the men?

Hey Burn,
I am going to voice my opinion whether you like it or not.
I find what you just wrote to be as offensive as the last thing. Sounds kinda threatning.
Why don't you write your opinion on the subject matter and not abuse me because I dont agree.
Try that.
Burn washington that is really abusive too. mmmm I am seeing a pattern here.

Burn here is a man. LMFAO!!! I would bet money on that!!

Well, FHB, for sure Mr. Caton was the first to act, he tried to get help and, when he couldn't, had the presence of mind to get the bus stopped and people off, along with the bus driver. Then the truck driver stopped independently, and the three of them acted with tremendous courage and clarity of thought. The details emerging in subsequent news reports have answered the questions we originally had.

Who else in the group huddled at the back of the bus who might have lent a hand? I guess we'll never know. And that's okay.

dj, I think the phrase is "don't feed the troll".

Nobody wakes up in the morning and thinks that they are going to die that day, unless they are seriously contemplating suicide -- even though it may ultimately end up being their date of death. An innocent bus trip should never have ended up ushering the tragic end of someone's life. I repeat -- I have noticed that the bus company never acknowledges the need for any "change" that needs to be made. It almost seems like it is "acceptable behavior" or "expected behavior" or "tolerable beahvior" because people catch the bus. It merely continues to take riders' money, as it has for years, with no apparent sense of resonsibility for their riders' safety and protections, and now it is time for them to make sure that the patrons are, at least to a degree, protected -- and they should feel safe, like they are protected. With rising airplane fares and gasoline costs, ridership could likely increase quickly and exponentially. Whereas, these practices were not necessarily a problem before, of late it has become a problem, and yet, it is never addressed, no remedies, no stopguards, no solutions, no possible solutions, are proposed for future riders. You may never have to catch a bus, but given the circumstances, how much comfort would you experience riding Greyhound, tomorrow. Or, perhaps, because it is the "poor man's method of transportation," it is an issue that should be treated as it has been in the past -- just ignored. The prices ARE a good deal for the money, but the cost of a ticket is not worth the price a life.

posting from Edmonton, Alberta. This is where the psycho got on the bus, I am just glad he killed the victem in a different province, because if it would have happened here

...oh, he did not mean it, he is from a disadvantaged background, he needs love and support... a couple of years in a mental hospital and he would be free.

I am not making this up, our Province usually lets these types of with little more than a slap on the wrist

All I can say is if I ever have to travel on a Greyhound bus, I'm carrying a pocket taser.

one thing that must be corrected. regarding Matt's post a few hours back about Kitty Genovese - he is way off on the facts. 30 people did not watch the attack from the safety of their windows. people heard screams and all assumed someone else would call the police. A couple witnessed the attack and called out to the attacker who then fled. check your facts friend

I've been reading through the comments above and things seem to have settled down (somewhat anyway). Hopefully, we can get past this anti-American / anti-Canadian mud slinging. Violent crime (and how it is dealt with) is a problem in both countries. While overall homicide and crime rates may be lower in Canada, the largest cities closest to where this horrible event happened (ie, Winnipeg, Regina and Saskatoon) have some of the worst per capita violent crime rates in North America. The Canadian magazine Maclean's noted that based on 2006 statistics Winnipeg, Regina and Saskatoon would be among North America's top ten most dangerous cities for violent crime (excluding homicides) and robberies.

I still think that unless you were on that bus (ie, in exactly the same circumstances as those passengers) you cannot call these people cowards. In an absolutely ideal world someone well trained or very experienced in close quarters hand to hand combat would have been sitting very close to the attacker ... and would have been on top of the guy immediately. In reality the bus was filled with a lot of tired, regular folks who experienced something absolutely horrific (well beyond what is part of "normal" life in North America) in an extremely short amount of time. I think they did the best they could under truly awful and terrible circumstances.

This talk about bravery and heroes reminds me of something that happened 130 miles and twenty years (and four days) from the site of this horrible killing. On July 23, 1983 an Air Canada 767 carrying 69 passengers and crew ran out of fuel in mid-flight at altitude over the Ontario / Manitoba border. Skill, luck and bravery allowed the flight crew to make an extremely difficult dead stick landing (no engine power from 28,000 ft down) at an abandoned military airfield in Gimli, Manitoba. Everyone on board survived a situation that could easily have turned catastrophic. I saw an interview with the pilot who landed the airplane. Despite all his training and confidence in his abilities he basically said that until this situation happened he didn't know how he would respond in an emergency (life and death) situation ... he had to go through it to know what he would do. And this is a guy who was trained to deal with potentially dire circumstances that might arise while doing his job. AGAIN, HE SAID HE DIDN'T KNOW HOW HE WOULD REACT UNTIL REAL WORLD CIRCUMSTANCES WERE UPON HIM.

I don't think it's right or reasonable to judge the response of untrained, inexperienced people thrust very quickly in to an extremely unexpected, complicated and violent situation. We should hope that all attackers are always subdued with absolutely minimal fatalities and injuries. Every such situation is different, however, and unless you were there (or in a very similar situation) right of judgment is not yours.

I agree with tree on this. I used to ride a greyhound to visit family as a child. My mother would put me and my sister on it alone and my grandparents or an aunt would be waiting on the other end. What happened during the ride was never mentioned. The truth is my sister and I had been offered drugs more than once during those trips. It was a bit scary but I had someone with me and we just stuck together. As an adult and a parent I would not put my child on a bus alone.

This makes me sick, most of you Heroes sitting at your computers would have soiled your pants in the same situation, Lets remember there were children on that bus and just maybe they were more concerned with the lives of there families. 99.9% of you that claim you would have tried to grab this guy with a machette would have soiled your pants if you were there.

To all of the brilliant Americans who seem to think that the people on the bus were cowards ... these comments coming from a nation that has people sending Anthrax messages and then committing suicide, or watching people die alone in hospital emergency rooms or standing by while someone dies in the street ... take a good look in the mirror.

I am a Canadian - but with American roots and a daughter who was born in USA ;) I've lived in both countries and have worked in the Criminal Justice system so hopefully my comments will not be able to be judged as anti-anyone....I think that the probably like you, Mr. Canton wishes he had done more, thinks he might have been able to do more, etc, etc. He's likely gone through the events 1000 times over -- saying things like "he was already dead" are probably also away of trying to settle things in his own mind. Maybe of trying to make himself believe it as well -- I'm sure he is experiencing unimaginable guilt. Although I don't think he should be - From what I read - the first stab wound was to the neck -- likely Tim screamed after the first or even 2 and 3 time -- but think of how many times you can stab someone in a 10-20 second period. Likely enough to fatally wound him before Mr. Canton could even get out of his seat.

Sad sad situation....

Yeah... Here's a great example of how an heroic American would have done things differently...

Well, Scott, you could have picked a better example.

A man parked his truck on a country road outside Turlock on Saturday night, removed a baby boy from a car seat and then beat the child to death in the street, fighting off passers-by who tried to stop him, until he was gunned down by a police officer whose helicopter landed in a nearby pasture, police said Sunday.

You first guy: "By the time the ambulance had left the scene, Singh said, almost a dozen people had witnessed some part of the incident, with at least two trying to physically stop the suspect".

Your opinion is that 30 people should have been able to fend off a guy at the back of a bus with a knife, when a dozen couldn't fend off an unarmed guy in the middle of the road.

From one dolt to another...

Excellent point Scott ---- they also had about 20 or more minutes to think about it!!!!

with at least two trying to physically stop the suspect

The point, DOLT, is that SOMEONE tried. Which is all we've been talking about this entire thread that you've come so late to: why didn't someone TRY and it turns out ONE fellow did and found others to help him. Out of 35.

As did those cowering outside the bus, Canada girl, when those three brave guys were blocking the door alone, while the lunatic slashes through the cracks.

I don't dispute that fact, DOLT. What I take issue with is the macho posturing taken by a large number of posters. Posturing which didn't quite get the job done in my cited article.

Tree Hugging Sister Posted This:

Brave Canadians are perishing in Afganistan every day!
Indeed they are and bless their brave hearts!
Others, however, were running off a bus.

Tree Hugger,you make me sick you Old Lady.

You have to have a gun ,be with a thousand other armed guys, and under the threat of execution for dereliction of duty to be BRAVE?
Thats a version of brave that you and Ebola must have worked on together.
Caton didn't have a gun. He tried, and if you notice, he kept a lunatic from harming 29 other passengers. In American Idol Land, he'd already be having a ticker tape parade.
Here in Canada, we will just quietly appreciate his common sense, and cherish him for being one of ours.

An aside: that poor baby died at night with people driving by. How many people might have seen something but had no clue? Who's to say what they would have done had they known? No one I guess. BUT, LIKE the POINT of the POST, I would HOPE someone would act. And apparently a couple did.

And the cop didn't say "well, the baby's already dead". He shot him.

Burn, I don't think you could appreciate a thing quietly, because you don't add a thing to the conversation but flames. And you're done.

And they would have shot the guy on the bus too if he had gone at them, etc -- instead there was a couple thousand pounds of metal between them and him. A little hard to hit that target! They likely would have LOVED to have killed him on the spot after the fact -- that certainly would have made the news too! But, for obvious reasons couldn't and didn't.

Also -- are the other 10 who drove on by while dad drop kicked his babies not cowards as well? Only 2 tried to help in this case -- and this A$$hole didn't even have a knife!!!

No one expected to "get the job done", or are you just willfully obtuse? All one asked is why didn't they try. The "posturing" as you put is was all about TRYING, dolt.

They tried in your article, and Mr. Caton and the others tried in Canada, as we've consequently found out and lauded with all our hearts.

Well I can understand your point. However I think you can agree that having not been involved in either situation directly ourselves, we cannot know if either outcome could have been different.

And I do HOPE you get your caps lock button fixed soon. ;-)

Only 2 tried to help in this case

we cannot know if either outcome could have been different

And I like my caps. {8^P

Tree hugging sister -- I think what you are saying now is that now you know that some TRIED you are ok with that? I'd be ok with this if you didn't call the others cowards but then ask where my arguement was re: the father -- there were cowards in this case too. I guess my point is everyone's not a hero -- as it was said, maybe some who drove by didn't even know what was going on -- I agree -- but the same arguement holds true in this case. Not everyone could have known what was going on in the bus....

Nor do we know everyone else's story -- I for one think that the mother who made sure her child was safe before worrying about herself is also a hero! What about those who stopped to help the lady up who fell instead of just trampling her to death -- are they not TRYING to help as well?

Boy has this hit a nerve! Been away for awhile. Glad the U.S. vs Canada had died down, that was never the point. I'm sure there is a plethora of cases on both sides where people did nothing. The point being that there is always the 10% that, in Marine Corps speak, never gets the word, is constantly screwing up or, on the other side, does remarkable deeds. In this case you would hope somebody anybody would stand up and try to stop this guy. Looks like somebody did, tried to anyway. Most people are cowardly, can't argue that but you can argue that there are those that run towards the threat while everybody else is running away and those are the men and women we all count on when things go bad. So enough of the individual bashing just agree most don't have the brass to do anything in a situation like this unless led by someone who does. I think it still boils down to my original idea about 170 or so comments ago, somebody, trained and with a gun could have taken this bastard out, I know that is not an option up North. My apologies to the anti-gun types.

True - someone could have taken him out (someone one the bus) if they had a gun. Like you said, not an option up here though....

Interesting point on this and even more sad if that's possible. His parents were notified by the media! I'm not sure when they were even able to get ahold of his mom -- his dad was interviewed today saying they were still trying to get in touch with his wife who is on a cruise in Alaska.

I agree with you -- if you're trained to deal with life/death situations as you would be in the Marines you'd certainly be more likely to do something. A mom on the bus with her toddler, a six year old, and the average Joe -- likely never dreamed they'd ever face something like this.

Evidently one of the individuals who did try to help was part of the forces -- this also proves you point in my opinion.

I'd be ok with this if you didn't call the others cowards

And if what you've just said about the poor kid's folks is TRUE? Dear God. How HORRIBLE.

Oh. My. God.

Travesty upon tragedy.

As did those cowering outside the bus, Canada girl, when those three brave guys were blocking the door alone, while the lunatic slashes through the cracks.

7:52 PM -- "those cowering" this isn't calling them cowards?

Here is the post re: his parents --

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080731/Manitoba_victim_080801/20080801?hub=TopStories

I'm trying to find the story about his mom.....

In that context, you're right. In my defense, I used it in the "to shrink away or crouch especially for shelter from something that menaces, domineers, or dismays" sense, which they were doing, leaving those three guys to protect them.

I honestly thought you were talking about the very beginning of the conversation, concerning events ON the bus. My bad.

Here's the post about his mom -- my mistake, evidently they hadn't reached her last night not today.....so I would hope by now they've gotten her home.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/08/01/stabbing-victim.html

From Canada girl's link:

"She told us that in fact they didn't know that Tim was the victim in this crime until last night when a journalist came to their house and knocked on the door," said Oliver.


"Obviously they're wondering why the RCMP did not come and inform the family for such a long time."


He said the family had been following the story when the news first broke early Thursday.


"Then, to get the knock on the door, and to find out that it's your son, it's your brother -- I can't imagine how it must have been for them and that shock is written on their faces," said Oliver.
Wow.

No offense taken - thanks for clearing that up :)

From my other link

"Father trying to reach wife

McLean's father, Tim McLean Sr., told CBC News on Thursday night that he was in the process of trying to get confirmation from the police that his son was, in fact, the victim.

He said he was also trying to reach his wife, who is on an Alaskan cruise until next week."

Your links were awful, but illuminating. Thanks, Canada girl. Our hearts go out to them.

I whole heartedly agree that a Mother or a family member that shields a child is a hero and I would say 99% of the time they would put themselves in harm's way to protect a child, they are not who we were talking about. My humble experience is that those most unlikely, the little guy, turns out to be the baddest mofo in the valley in bad situations and woe is the focus of him/her. This is terrible that the press? had to notify the family of this poor soul's fate. Now that should piss some of you off and rightly so.

Well first off he had a real knife, not a little box cutter. Here in Canada we would not let somone take control of a vehicle with a box cutter. If he had a box cutter I'm sure They would not have had to wait and rally up a group of people to overtake him. As dundee said that's not a kinke this is a knife. So for all you united states people who say that we are chicken
think about how you were terrorized by little box cutters on sept 11. Imagine if they had a real knife that could really kill somone you gave up your planes with little box cutters.

Big time!!! I have no idea how in the world that the press could have the name before the RCMP got to the family.....I mean he had to have some type of ID on him. With the internet I know that things hit sites like Facebook almost as fast as they happen, but you'd think that if they suspected (but still wanted to confirm) they would have sent someone to the house to ensure that this didn't happen. I don't know what the timeframe was before the press arrived though either.

The people ran off the bus are just as quilty as the piece of shit who killed that innocent boy!!!!Don't make excuses up for yourselves...the kook had his back turned while he was cutting up that poor boy a man should have knocked him out knocked him over the head with a shoe, briefcase, pipe, crow bar...why, why, the human race is a disgrace.....doesn't the canadian police own a shot gun or machine gun....why let him cut that poor boys body up.......your disgraceful all of you. I wasn't there, and couldn't sleep all night after reading this ....no sense of helping others....I die helping someone...I couldn't live with myself if I did not help.....no excuse.

Why don't you go to some of the other sites -- specifically ctv.ca and actually WATCH some of the very very telling interviews with the people who were there! Caton says he kept thinking about how to get back in and help the victim. They were both at the very BACK of the bus -- only one way to get at this guy then -- from the front down a narrow aisle. No one was armed except the lunatic. There were people that TRIED to help -- you're not totally informed.

I don't know what kind of special powers and guns you think the police would have that would be able to see through the metal bus and then shoot the guy!!!!

Folks, I know all the Rambo-gun-mad american shots and the wimpy-beauty-eh-how's-your-tuque canadian bits are great fun but to me the essential point here boils down to respect for human dignity and your fellow man. I don't advocate action against this fellow because I want to show what a big stud I am (which I most certainly am not); I advocate it because it's the right thing to do. Were that your son or husband or wife or daughter in that seat...or you. Wouldn't you want someone to try and protect you, even if it was merely to protect your body from desecration? And how therefore do you not attempt to protect someone else's child/husband/son/wife?

Sure, perhaps it can be argued that a 'good' thing was done in safely evacuating the bus. But let's not kid ourselves; they were no safer

Within moments, the bald man noticed the three men watching him and started to move towards the front of the bus. The three men fled, closing the door just as the man reached them. Mr. Caton held the door shut while the driver attempted to use a control panel to close it and the man slashed at them through a remaining crack. "We were telling him, ‘Stay put, stay put, stay there, don't try to come out," Mr. Caton said.

But with one strong heave, the man pushed the door open, forcing Mr. Caton and the two others to flee behind the bus. They then worked their way around the far side, glancing underneath to see if they could spot the attacker's feet on the other side.

At this point there was nothing preventing him from coming outside and chasing down those poor folks like scared sheep and doing what he would to them. But for some unknown reason he decided to go back to attacking poor Mr. McLean's remains; that's the only thing that saved everyone outside and allowed those 3 men to bar the door.

Mr. Caton, to his eternal credit, seems to have been the only person who tried to enlist his fellow passengers to go to Mr. McLean's aid, but no one would help. Sure, a gun would have been useful, but even unarmed they could have knocked him down. Had a few supported him they could have rushed this fellow and knocked him down. Which they would, because the bad guy can't dodge; they're going to go plowing in to him. The guy in front would probably get cut, perhaps even killed. But the guys behind wouldn't have. And when he was down he would be done. So maybe one more passenger gets seriously injured; now, compare to what might have happened had he decided to get off the bus and attack the shocked passengers when there was nothing preventing him from doing it, and the death toll goes much higher. Thank what ever deity you prefer that he decided to stay on the bus and give them a chance to bar him in.

I've been working in lower Manhattan for over 20 years, and I've commuted in by train, car, boat and bus, and I've also been robbed at gunpoint (nothing clarifies the mind like the barrel of a pistol between your shoulder blades, let me assure you), and I will confess that prior to September 11th I probably would have been in the don't confront/antagonize school of thought. But since then, shit, I love life, every glorious second of it, and I love other people's lives and I want them to live theirs to the fullest. Post 9/11, I've realized that insane assholes like this are going to try and kill us no matter what we do; we can just make it easy for them, and they'll definitely succeed, or fight back and make it hard, and maybe just maybe they'll fail.

Kitty, the police arrived on scene after the crime had been committed and everyone (except the killer) was off the bus. With the killer trapped on the bus the police were in a stand off type situation. Their job was to arrest the guy so he could be brought to justice. Had the killer attempted to attack the police (or anyone else) during the stand off they would have been within their rights to take him down as they deemed necessary (ie, shoot to kill). As it turns out they were able to arrest the killer without shooting him first. The role of the police force in Canada is not to deal out justice (ie, they can't shoot a criminal, no matter how vicious, who poses no immediate threat). The police enforce the law and are required to abide by defined rules of engagement. Justice is served by the courts ... you can decide whether or not the sentence ultimately handed out is fair and reasonable.

Americans are so ignorant saying that Canadians are cowards. On sept 11 why did they loose the twin towers cuz they were chicken s**** to do anything. We lost a good canadian when this attack happened but it stopped there not like in new york.

captcanuck

Mr. Bingley --

while I understand what you are saying - I think Mr. Caton certainly tried to help and it was chaos in the begining. When they were able to get everyone out (and out of the way of the narrow aisle), they tried to board the bus again to try to help, but they realized it was too late. I'm not sure that then putting themselves in the line of attack would have helped matters at that point.

My point being that even if they had done that and then he got off the bus, there would be questions as to why people didn't just block the door.

Sure, canada girl, by that point their only option was to block the door, and thank god he distracted himself long enough for them to do it.

and thanks for hanging around, btw.

For the most part I've found this to be an good debate over what coulda/woulda -- so enjoyed the discussion.

Off to bed now -- but will leave with this...at the end of the day, it's horrifing that we have such acts to even debate but I am glad that we both live in countries where we still can.

Peace and God Bless to Tim and his family

Ditto from me.

Amen to that, CG.

As others have noted, you can't know what you'd do in a situation like that unless you've actually faced one. Even people who would be willing to help might need a bit of time to work up to it.

But. The other passengers were not, as the police spokesman labeled them, "brave". They weren't cowards either, given the speed of the incident and the fact they didn't have a duty to get involved in a life-threatening situation. But let's let words keep their meanings.

I remember reading a study finding that when people are in larger grouops they fail to react to aid a victim. Yet, if they were alone or in a smaller group then they respond. In larger groups they stand back and wait for someone else to do something. This was demonstrated here in the US when a young man and woman were arguing on a bridge in NYC ( I think) and a large crowd stood around and watched her jump off the bridge to her death to escape the beatings of her boyfriend. No ONE Canadian or US citizen helped her. I'm sorry for all involved in this and all acts of violence and I do not know what I would do. Please do not compare this one psycho to 9/11. Our nation is still hurting and yours is hurting now because of this; personally I am sorry for you all

To all of you who think that you could have taken this guy on and succeeded, please note that:

1) He had a "Rambo" style hunting knife, not a kitchen or butcher knife...One swipe at your at your neck and it would be game over for you.

2) He was sitting in the very last row of the bus, his back would have been facing the washroom, so you would have to charge him face to face or from his side, and hope to catch his wrist with 100% accuracy, in a narrow passage way. Only one or two UNARMED passengers could have taken him on at the same time.

3) He's an Asian immigrant, approximately 5'9" and 170 pounds and most likely had some basic skills in martial arts.

4) Last, but not least, HE IS PSYCHOTIC and is not afraid of you.

Contrary to popular American opinion, many Canadians own guns especially in that part of our country where hunting is very popular. I doubt that many Americans carry concealed handguns when they travel on a freaking Greyhound bus; and unless you were sitting directly in front of the psycho, firing a gun in such a crammed space could get other people killed (ricochet). On second thought if you have to travel through Manitoba on a Greyhound bus, you probably can't afford a decent (legal) handgun to begin with.

So unless you happen to be a cross between a Green Beret and Jet Li, approaching this man would be downright STUPID not courageous.

Second degree murder charge?? Wonder if bail will be made?! Surely some bonding co. will step up!

Alright... all you people who are saying 'Bah, you shoulda just tried to stop him, you were all wussies'... were you there? Let's see you be in this same situation.

This happens late at night in the middle of no where. People were likely half awake at the time and scared out of their minds. Just because so many of you are pumped up on testosterone that you think you coulda taken him... look at it this way. If you had attacked, maybe you would be the next head. And it only takes one stab wound to kill a person. I am not saying to be selfish, but still, you shouldnt expect people to all be hero's. It is easy to pretend to be one on the internet, but if you were in this situation, I rather doubt it. It was brave enough of the two drivers and the third guy to hold the guy back inside... someone that insane could have easily smashed open a window and tried to stab them.

Second degree murder charge?? Wonder if bail will be made?! Surely some bonding co. will step up!


I don't think there are any bail bonds agents/companies in Canada. I think bail in Canada is often lower than in the U.S., but the accused (or their family and friends) have to put it up themselves. Also, a judge in Ontario has told me that courts in Canada are more willing to refuse bail than in the US, and if they think the accused is likely to commit a crime or try to flee, they will often just not allow them bail and keep them locked up until the trail.

Not psycho or insane, just pure evil. Oh, and a Muslim. Draw your own conclusions.

Well to me it is obvious it was premeditated. Why would anyone carry a Rambo style knife for no
reason. Just to look at it? Also why would anyone own a knife like that? Was the pshycho guy a hunter who needs to own knives like that? And all of a sudden begins to stab a fellow passenger. It looks to me he wanted to use it and did.

I came back cause I wanted to read more stupid comments from all the brave people that think they would or even could have charged down the isle, over the seats, through a crowd of people and save this boy and " blah, blah blah"..
In any Scenario they played out in their minds there has to be a element of 'super hero' to have accomplished it.
Like the fantasies little kids play out after the bully smacks them down in the school yard.
"He would have gotten it if only I had of had time to whip my jacket off and showed him the big S on my chest".. (right?)
It is totally whacked to think given the whole situation, the shock, all of it, that anyone could have or would have done anything different. Even all these 'super hero' types..They just 'wern't' there and 'didn't' run towards the exit themselves so they can arm chair quarterback till the cows come home.
Really kind of funny that people truly 'think' they are ALL THAT and a bag of chips~!
I'm of the opinion that because some idiot didn't whip out a gun and start blasting inside the bus or beat others down and crawl over others and create even more chaos into the situation that today we don't have any other mothers crying over a lost child.
My opinion is that these people did a great job of dealing with the unthinkable, the unimaginable in the middle of the shocking reality of it.