The Coalition of the Swilling

Aw man. Now I'm crying.

That was a very ballsy girl. Girls.

I know y'all will hate me for this, but I am not happy with this reaction. I'd much rather she bought time for her friends by kicking and clawing the murderer.

I understand that little girls are likely to be indisposed towards behaving violently, and are likely to be overwhelmed by a large man and feel helpless, and I don't want to fault them. It's a tragedy they were put in the position at all.

I admit that they were brave in a christian sort of way that believes death is better than life and that self-sacrifice is a good thing, but I agree with neither of those premises.

So, where I am reluctant to fault these reactions, I don't agree with calling for emulating them.

If we believed that death was better than life, we wouldn't talk about a God who had come back to life and conquered death forever. However, I do understand your larger point.

Mike, I agree with you in that fighting back is the better way to go, and I don't hate you. But don't forget the Amish are pacifists, and favor "nonresistance" over violence, including self-defense.

By Amish standards (not yours or mine), Marian was extremely brave. It's not just a "little girl thing", it's the way those children were raised.

I'm not sure that any of them were even capable of considering fighting back.....but they did resist with everything they had, and bought a few more minutes for their classmates. For that, they deserve our utmost respect.

The sad thing is that the act, while brave, was ultimately futile, much like a kitten spitting defiance at a pack of dogs. Hence, I have no desire to follow their philosophy, as Roberts is one of those creatures who is better off dead.

And "death is better than life" is not a Christian value that I've ever heard of. Christianity accepts that death is part of life.....and what matters is how you live, and (sometimes) how you die. Not that death is better.

As I see things, Christians (and the cultures that Christianity has influenced) aren't afraid to live. It's the sick bastards like Roberts who are afraid to live, and seek death in bizarre ways.

I'm with you, Mike. Kick back, scream, scratch his disgusting eyeballs out...but that's our culture. Also the murderer's. These things don't exist in the plane that schoolhouse rests on. I'm sure the Amish as well as everyone else knows there's ugly in the world, but they've purged as much as they can from theirs. We confront it in ours.

I'm not sure that any of them were even capable of considering fighting back

Jeff's absolutely right on that account ~ That's outside the context of their faith and their lives. I don't believe they would be capable of confrontation. But they were capable of the most selfless, unimaginable sacrifice and bravery in the face of unimaginable evil.

As little girls. It's just stunning.

The Bible teaches, "The greatest gift a person can give is his life for a friend." That Amish young woman gave her best, her life.

How many of us would stand between a madman with a gun and a friend and request death? Sadly not many in this narcissistic society of ours.

Tatiana, thank you. Not only do you call us a bunch of narcissists, which seems to have little to do with the subject, but you pretty much demonstrate my point about christianity being focused on death.

Mike, you're heading off into the freakin' 'Christian' argument wilderness again.
Let me be as plain as I know how.

You can accept a LCpl falling on a grenade or diving in front of the bullet to protect another Marine ~ maybe not even a friend, but a brother in arms none the less, be he Christian, atheist, Muslim , whatever ~ he is your BROTHER. You don't castigate his bullet riddled body for being a fool and not ducking, do you? What is the difference here, Mike? WHAT?

If you cannot accept these precious young girls' incredible bravery in the face of incredible horror and just acknowlege that it takes a MAGNIFICENT HUMAN BEING to do such a thing, I am truly sorry for you.

Mike, your reply is incredibly obtuse.

Tatiana did not call you a narcissist, unless you've already decided never to put your life at risk to help another person. She pointed that our society tends to be narcissistic, which is a valid point. Sad, but true.

Further, the actual point made in the Bible, in full context, is ANYTHING but focused on death, to wit:

John 15:12-14 (King James Version)

12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

The ultimate sacrifice anyone can make is to lay down their lives for their friends. How many soldiers received their Medal of Honor post-humously for exactly that situation?

The funny thing is, I am anything but a devout Christian, and haven't read the Bible in years. But I knew that you are wrong with this "Christians focus on death" meme. Took me 1 minute in Google to find http://www.biblegateway.com/, and 5 minutes after that to find the relevant quote.

I agree with you, Tatiana.

Time to pile on; Mike, please remember "little girls", "adult male with a gun", I know quite a few people that probably would just shit themselves in that situation. The idea and we don't know for sure, that one or two (maybe all) of these little girls would sacrifice themselves in order to prevent the rest from injury or death is remarkable. Given their peaceful upbringing makes it more so, I take it they weren't cowering but standing up to this animal. So they weren't afraid of death because of their faith what is important is that they were willing to give it up for another. Even someone with no faith that gives his/her life for another gets commended. It's still the fact that you are willing to sacrifice whether you think you might be going to heaven or to nowhere or worse.

Again, I am not faulting the girls at all. I'm not saying that they did anything wrong. I'm only saying that I question the values that would encourage this behavior.

I never said anything about people diving on grenades. I never said that diving on grenades should be encouraged either. I don't think the medal of honor should be given for that, I feel it should be reserved for attacking the enemy against incredible odds, not for killing yourself. I'm not saying that it is inappropriate to dive on a grenade, sometimes it is a good decision, but I see it as a tragedy, not as a virtue.

As for Christianity being focused on death, it's funny how people have brought up the same quote which explicitly values death over life and use this as proof that Christianity isn't focused on death. Let's review the quote:

"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."

Do you see how this says that one man's death is more valuable than another's life? Many people are so immersed in the culture of sacrifice that they don't even perceive this value judgement.

Anyway, that was my point. My heart is in pain over the deaths of these poor children who in no way deserved such fates. In no way am I second guessing the decisions and actions they made under duress. Their actions were reasonable, but I don't find them commendable.

I wish their parents had taught them that evil must be fought, not simply submitted to, and I wish that they had an opportunity and a means to resist. If Quakers or Amish were on United 93, there would have been a smoking hole in the White House.

When people in a society submit to evil, then there's no freedom and the innocents who had no opportunity to resist are made to suffer.

Considering that the girls were tied up (the guy apparently had planned this out pretty well in advance), I doubt that kicking him or clawing his eyes out were realistic options at that point.

That is one of the saddest and greatest things I have heard.