The Coalition of the Swilling

I do! Bravo Zulu, Mister Secretary.

A warm Swill Welcome, Ken!

And we'll agree to disagree, winkwinknudgenudgesaynomoresaynomore! {8^P

A current general stated that this grumbling was "bad for civil military relations".

I agree.

Retired generals need to remember, as do retired Presidents, that they are retired.

So do NOT agree. A President gets to be there by virtue of a popular vote, is there for 4/maybe 8 years and has the ultimate platform for changing and implementing policy. That's his shot at the whole enchilada and if it doesn't pan out, or the next ELECTED guy goes a different direction, too bad and yes, keep your mouth shut. Go do good works in the Sudan.

A General or senior officer on the otherhand spends 25 to 30 years of his life in compensated servitude to his country. When he raises that right hand for the oath, he has effectively (and willingly) abdicated any of the rights he has as a citizen until such time as he no longer is in the service of his country. ONE of those is the freedom of speech. You can be circumspect at work in any job in the country, go home at night, maybe run for office, run a piss and moan blog, maybe mouth off to a local reporter at the watering hole whilst in your cups and the ramifications are what? Generally nothing, unless you zapped your boss and he fires you. There are no penalties for your earnest, even obscene expressions of your POLITICAL opinion. ANY military member could lose everything and do jail time for what you take for granted. That right to free speech has been ceded by those who serve and for very good reason. Like I said, without those controls we'd be Argentina or Chili. BUT, after faithfully going the distance, advocating as best they could within the confines of the UCMJ and the prevailing administration's policies, are you saying when they retire they STILL have no right to a public difference of opinion? Even when lives are the issue? This isn't a resigned/fired/loser presidential advisor writing a book after 2 or 3 years in the White House, out to make a dime while people still remember who he is, or Clinton/Carter squabbling over what Bush is doing this week because they need to see their mugs on the tube or names in the Times. These are general officers of DECADES of faithful service who felt a strong enough MORAL obligation to the lives of the troops they lead to speak up. It doesn't happen very often ~ as a matter of fact, never before with this unified a voice that I can think of offhand. That should be indicative of the gravity of what they feel is wrong. I used McNamara as an example in the post below. If ANY of those Vietnam generals had a SHRED of moral fortitude, how on EARTH do you think they felt when that a$$hole's book came out and betrayed them. They'd kept the faith, held the line, even after there was no UCMJ penalty hanging over their heads for speaking out...yet they didn't. And then along comes the old SecDef to say it was all lies. Kids died for his lies ~ no snappy slogan there, just the truth. They don't call it the Vietnam generation for nothing ~ we've got a whole traumitized slice of American service members who felt betrayed, WERE betrayed and are still paying for it.

Those of you who have never had to live under such an edict for an extended period of time need to think about that a smidge before so roundly dismissing what these fellows are saying. General Zinni was NOT part of this administration's war efforts and has been speaking plainly since he retired. And for example ~ NO one seems to have a problem with McCain, Wesley Clark or Murtha speaking out, who are ALL retired senior officers. How the hell do you get elected if you can't offer an opinion? (Or is it only ungentlemanly and seditious if it's JUST your opinion and you're NOT running for office?)

Excellent points THS. Your argument is hard to argue.

I bow to your superior logic, Sis. You are correct, and I was wrong.

Except in your husband's case; am I going to have to hear more from him?

You're lucky I'm not chiming in Bing but since she crushed you I don't have to. Besides I'm still active so I have that little thing called the UCMJ over my head.